I mean, don't you get people complaining about what you've done to the place?

Well - that's a fair point, actually. And the answer, of course, is, er, yes we do. We, we get people who are interested in, you know, in church architecture, complaining that what we're doing here is... out of sympathy with... you know, the character of the place, its history. But I have to say that the vast majority of responses I hear are positive ones. And the thing we have to ask ourselves is, do we want a museum-piece, which is visited by almost nobody except, um, those with a specialist interest? Or do we want something alive and, er, alive and vibrant? Because you look at a lot of city churches and they're like lost little corners, little islands, cut off from all the hustle and bustle, becalmed... Whereas there's probably as much going on in this building as there is in any of the others round here.

To be fair to Ivan, that's pretty much the case he was arguing to me, back in St Helen's.

It's a question of priorities. What's exciting to me is that I get to see about four thousand people a year and, you know, we're offering them a genuine... we're making a genuine difference in their lives... Personally I think that's more important - and actually I think it's more in keeping with what this building was originally meant for. You know, it was designed as a place of worship, a place where people could focus their minds on God...

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